Navigating New Horizons: Jamie's Journey to Japan as a UX Researcher
In this episode of Designing Japan, we dive into the journey of Jamie, a UX researcher from the UK who recently made the move from Meta in London to a Japanese company in Tokyo. From the bustling streets of Tokyo to the dynamics of a bilingual Japanese workplace, Jamie shares his experiences and insights on adapting to life and UX work in Japan.
- The Journey Begins: Jamie’s path to Japan was anything but straightforward. Initially planning to move in 2020 on a working holiday visa, his plans were thwarted by the pandemic. However, a job opportunity at a tech company in Japan a few years later reignited his dream.
- Cultural Adaptation: Adjusting to life in Japan has been a whirlwind of experiences for Jamie. From the meticulous organization of Tokyo’s metro system to the vibrant cultural tapestry, Jamie reflects on the nuances of daily life. He discusses the challenges of balancing work and personal exploration, emphasizing the importance of embracing change and staying open-minded.
- Professional Insights: Working in a bilingual environment presents unique challenges and opportunities. Jamie shares his observations on the differences in UX practices between Japan and his previous roles in the UK and at Meta. He highlights the importance of cultural sensitivity and the need for effective communication in a diverse workplace.
- Advice for Aspiring Expats: For those considering a move to Japan, Jamie offers practical advice. Whether through teaching English, leveraging language skills, or building a strong professional network, he outlines various pathways to making the dream a reality. His key takeaway? Be proactive, network extensively, and remain open to unexpected opportunities.
Jamie’s journey is one of courage, adaptability, and the pursuit of personal and professional growth. Tune in to the full episode to hear more about Jamie’s experiences and insights on living and working in Japan.
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Full Transcript
Maxwell Forrest (00:02.697)
Okay, Jamie, we're live. Welcome to Dining Japan, Jamie. Thank you for being here.
Jamie (00:12.622)
Thanks for having me. Very excited to talk with you.
Maxwell Forrest (00:15.819)
Okay, so yeah, I've known Jamie for a while. I think you reached out on LinkedIn a few years ago and we met up in Tokyo when you were visiting. And then you're kind enough to visit our workshop in Shimoda last year. But now you're living and working in Japan. And so yeah, today, I think it would be great to hear bit about your background and your journey of making the move to Japan, particularly as there are many stories, I think, UX researchers who have successfully come from overseas to live in Japan. Yeah, so...
Looking forward to chatting today.
Jamie (00:47.116)
Yeah, let's dive into it.
Maxwell Forrest (00:49.523)
Okay, let's start by... Okay, could you tell me a bit about yourself and your background?
Jamie (00:59.15)
Sure, yeah. Oh gosh, where to begin? So I just said, I'm Jamie. I've worked in research now for gosh, seven to 10 years, depending on when you start calling research research, but I've worked across different companies from sort of startup to big tech. And yeah, now in Japan, working for a tech company here.
And yeah, prior to that, I was working at Metta for five years. So that was like quite a good stint. And yeah, where should I go into? I'm sure we'll go into a little bit more But yeah, I've been in Japan, what? I've been here for four months now. So it's still pretty fresh. So I'm still transitioning in that sense, if you like.
Maxwell Forrest (01:33.387)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (01:38.931)
Yeah. Yeah. Can't wait to hear about the details.
Maxwell Forrest (01:49.205)
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah, yeah, yeah. think, yeah, we'd love to hear about your initial impressions of Japan later on, I think, as well. Yeah, but you said you've been in research now for seven to 10 years, so that's quite a long time to be, particularly in UX research, which is still a new field. What got you into UX research in the first place?
Jamie (02:15.514)
like a lot of researchers, sort of stumbled my way into it. I actually started my career as a data analyst, working in like games analytics. and then I moved into media analytics, at a particular sort of sports media startup. And because it was very startup, you were wearing a lot of different hats. so analytics actually evolved into more than just analytics. was all kinds of insights, from, yeah.
data analytics to more sort of strategic insights and eventually became more qualitative research and things like that. So I came across it that way. I met a lot of interesting people, just kind of like workshops and things like that, and just opened my eyes into research. And I was like, wow, like this is way more exciting, like, as opposed to just analyzing numbers, analyzing people was even more fascinating to me. So I kind of...
that's fairly early on in that journey decided like this was what I wanted to pursue more. So yeah, just started doing more self study and sort of tried to where I could influence my current role to be a little bit more skewed in that direction and kind of pushed on from there.
Maxwell Forrest (03:28.735)
Hmm, that's really interesting. think there's not many data analysts who sort of transitioned to UX research. think? I feel like it's often the opposite of like a UX researcher trying to move into data analyst to do more sort of quant in the work.
Jamie (03:41.494)
Yeah, true. Although I think that like, it's interesting speaking to researchers, there's all manner of different backgrounds that they come from. There's very rarely like a standard pathway I seem to find. Maybe sort of like now, obviously you've got like, HCI degrees and psychology seems to be the other like most common path, but
Maxwell Forrest (03:49.332)
Hmm.
Jamie (04:07.426)
prior to it becoming a little bit more commonplace, like there was no real like awareness or set pathway. So I think I'm like quite a lot of people at this stage where they kind of just stumbled onto it really.
Maxwell Forrest (04:13.183)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (04:21.739)
Yeah, yeah, Awesome. And then I think before coming to Japan, you mentioned that you were in Meta, so you're in Big Tech in the UK. And I think a lot of UX researchers around the world would really love to work in Big Tech and experience that. So I'd love to hear a bit about how you got into that and what it was like.
Jamie (04:38.528)
Yeah, actually, like, I joined Meta in the middle of the pandemic. It was shortly after a failed attempt to move to Japan originally, actually. The pandemic sort of screwed up those plans. So I was back looking for work and just on LinkedIn, I saw that there was a role for Meta. Didn't hold too much expectations, to be honest, because
Maxwell Forrest (04:49.256)
wow.
Jamie (05:07.862)
My resume wasn't like hugely deep, I would say at that point. But you know, like a lot of people, you just sort of hit and hope and see what happens and went through that process. And as a lot of people will tell you, interviewing at Metta or other big tech, the process is very long, right? So a lot of interviews over a course of several weeks. But for whatever reasons, the stars aligned and I received an offer and was very happy to accept.
Maxwell Forrest (05:25.045)
Hmm.
Jamie (05:37.038)
And yeah, spent five, almost five years at Meta covering a few different teams, doing research. And obviously you learn a ton full of like very, very smart people across different functions as well. So for me, it was a very positive experience. know like, depending on who you speak to, experiences will vary. But for me, had...
Maxwell Forrest (05:57.653)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds like an amazing experience to grow as a UX researcher. And you mentioned that this was a result of like a failed attempt to move to Japan. Are you okay to share a bit about that? Yeah.
Jamie (06:11.424)
Yeah, yeah, of course. I I sort of spoiled the ending a little bit there, but towards the end of 2019, I felt like I'd kind of hit a ceiling in the current company that the startup that I was at. And at this point, I was dead set on pursuing a career in research. But I felt like almost empowered of the knowledge, okay, I know what my next career step is, I want to do research.
So now's the time for something new and I'd always wanted to live abroad and had an affinity with Japan. So I was still young enough at that stage to get the kind of working holiday visa that is available for a of So I'd positioned myself to move to Japan.
Maxwell Forrest (06:52.681)
Mmm.
Jamie (07:00.11)
what would have been in April 2020. I had planned to do like a couple of months of language school and then I was in talks with a sort of a different media company in Japan, which is actually a global media company, but for their office in Japan to work there as well. But like a lot of people, plans were shaken very abruptly by COVID because I Japan...
Maxwell Forrest (07:23.178)
Hmm.
Jamie (07:25.932)
was one of the more strict countries where they really closed the borders and cancelled all visas. So for me, it was quite traumatic in a way, because I had quit my job and quit my apartment in London, so I had no place to go. So I went back to my hometown, stayed with my parents, and attempted some sort of freelance work and started applying for full-time positions from there.
Maxwell Forrest (07:29.461)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (07:39.243)
Mmm.
Maxwell Forrest (07:46.357)
Hmm.
Wow, okay. Yeah, it must have been quite a shock at the time if you were all ready to move and you'd already, yeah, so given up your apartment and everything. Yeah. my goodness.
Jamie (07:55.03)
Yeah, I'd sold all my stuff as well. I got rid of all my stuff and it was already literally just a couple of weeks from getting on the plane. But yeah, it's a weird feeling because as much as it was sad, there was worse things happening in the world. Like I was more obviously when people were concerned about.
Maxwell Forrest (08:06.781)
Wow.
Maxwell Forrest (08:14.218)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (08:18.676)
Hmm.
Jamie (08:21.548)
their friends and family's health and the kind of, yeah, more sort of viral pandemic going around. So I was still more.
Maxwell Forrest (08:29.587)
Yeah. And it resulted in working in METO as well. And then eventually you made it back to Japan.
Jamie (08:35.662)
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's also partly why I made the jump from meta to where I am now. Because in my brain, there was always a little bit of a question mark of what if, what would I have been like? Did I miss that experience for good? Or is there a way to kind of have both? So yeah, curiosity kind of got the best of me.
Maxwell Forrest (08:42.485)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (08:46.493)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (08:55.625)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (09:00.403)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And you mentioned that around that time, around 2019, you were looking to try something new, maybe live overseas, you thought about going to Japan on the working holiday visa. Were you interested in Japan before that? What was the reason that you were originally thinking about Japan as a place to live?
Jamie (09:16.942)
Yeah, for a long time I've had an interest in Japanese culture, stemming back to when I first visited with a couple of friends in, I think it was 2009, 2010, something like that. Whilst I was at university, we went just for a holiday and I actually didn't know too much what to expect.
but ended up just having the best possible time. And since then, I've always had some interest in Japan and sort of the culture and started to slowly dabble in the language a little bit. So it's always been high on that list. Like I said, I've always had, well not always, but like in the last few years, had an appetite to live abroad. But because of that interest in the culture, Japan has always sat quite high on that list.
Maxwell Forrest (09:53.588)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (09:58.667)
Yep.
Maxwell Forrest (10:02.665)
Hmm, I think like there's a lot of people who come to Japan as a tourist and they really like it or they really like Japanese culture like anime or food or something. But actually thinking about living here, I think is an extra step that a lot of people don't get to. So was there anything that prompted you to think like, I can actually like live and work in Japan like that's an option.
Jamie (10:24.63)
yeah, I fully appreciate that point. I definitely think there is a big difference between like traveling as a visitor and living here. I was questioning that myself, of course, like before coming, like I could just indefinitely keep visiting and enjoying that part of the culture. but for me, I wanted to go that next level deeper and experience like daily life in a country outside of my, my home country.
And yeah, sorry, remind me what was the actual question again?
Maxwell Forrest (10:59.703)
Yeah, no, just about like, was there anything that helped you realize that actually is possible to do that? Like, even if you have the dream of like, love to live in Japan eventually, like, how do you actually make that a reality? I think a lot of people have difficulty actually picturing how that would play out.
Jamie (11:05.4)
Gotcha.
Jamie (11:13.13)
Yeah, it's a weird one where like, obviously, Japan for a lot of like Western countries, there is there's a lot that's different for sure. Like, and that's part of the appeal that like things are differently. But there's also a lot that's the same, you know, like, you wake up, you have your coffee, you go to work, you do your work, you go home, you do whatever you're interested in. So like,
it isn't like monsterably different in terms of a reality of your life. It's all the kind of bits in between that are different, but you know, speaking to people who already live there is a huge help. luckily I had you Max, who I could speak to and get some feedback on what it was like and finding the right environment. That's like, you know, I think work is a big part of people's lives. So
Maxwell Forrest (11:42.751)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (11:58.101)
Hmm.
Jamie (11:59.022)
doing as much as you can to kind of validate the company that you might work for and what that will be like. Yeah, I think also just being open-minded to the challenges that come and
Maxwell Forrest (12:08.574)
Yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (12:12.02)
Hmm.
Jamie (12:12.844)
There is, think, like one of the biggest challenges moving to Japan is with the upfront admin. I was very lucky in that my company supported a lot of it without them or particularly with visas and stuff like that. it's quite a headache. So getting through that is. Yes, it's definitely fun. And that's, think part of the trick.
Maxwell Forrest (12:25.779)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, but that's part of the fun, right?
Jamie (12:36.974)
that at least I'm definitely not perfect at this, what I'm trying to do, or have tried to do was frame all of that as like a problem solving exercise rather than a pain in the butt.
Maxwell Forrest (12:47.934)
Hmm.
Very positive way to frame it, yeah. Learning experience, Yeah. Okay. So you were, I suppose you originally planned to go to Japan on a working holiday visa and then sort of COVID put us up to that, but then you worked at Meta for a few years and then you were thinking about doing something again and going to another country again while you were at Meta. Like how did that, when you're thinking about how you could possibly go back to Japan, what sort of options did you consider then?
Jamie (12:53.966)
Yeah, yeah
Jamie (13:20.714)
Yeah, so I made it quite clear to my managers at Metta that I was looking for opportunities to live abroad. for Metta, obviously, they are a big international company and they have offices in Japan and in the US. For the team I was in, the only sort of like feasible option was the US.
And even that comes with lot of challenges, think just during the climate and there's various layoffs and things like that that were happening. So getting internal transfers and stuff was tricky, not impossible. But I definitely made that kind of personal goal quite clear to my manager.
Maxwell Forrest (13:57.482)
Hmm.
Jamie (14:08.173)
It was never it was discussed like a various regular check-ins and things like that about possibly the US But I guess like I wasn't as excited about the US as an option Nothing against the US didn't feel different enough to justify operating my life and of course I think that does does have like a product
Maxwell Forrest (14:21.717)
Hmm, no.
Jamie (14:35.95)
presence in Japan but the roles are quite few and far between and there's quite a lot of people who would you know for those so the competition is high for a very small amount of positions. yeah eventually I kept an eye decided to keep an eye on other opportunities outside the company just in case and I never thought
Maxwell Forrest (14:41.033)
Hmm. Yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (14:58.891)
And how did you do that? mean, is it hard to like see whatever jobs are in Japan? Like, how did you go about doing that?
Jamie (15:06.988)
Yeah, to be honest, for me, I was actually very happy in my role. So I wasn't super proactively pushing other opportunities. All I had was a few alerts set up on LinkedIn so that if any user research roles appeared in a couple of different countries that I was interested in, I would get that regular email in my inbox being like, here are some roles. Most of the time,
Maxwell Forrest (15:12.203)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (15:21.854)
Hmm, okay.
Jamie (15:34.958)
Well, first of all, there isn't that many in Japan, so that's a challenge for research, I think. It's still like a growing field in Japan, like you'll know better than me, of course, but that was my sense. And then the few that they did have, a lot of them required business level Japanese, of which my Japanese is definitely not at that level. So I'd kind of assumed in a way it was never going to happen for me because I didn't want to...
Maxwell Forrest (15:37.694)
Hmm, yep.
Maxwell Forrest (15:51.347)
Hmm.
Jamie (16:01.346)
divert heavily from my career as a user researcher. And I kind of knew that I did want to push on. So I thought it was never gonna happen until one day a role popped up for my current company where it didn't mention business level Japanese required. And I thought, well, this is interesting. Like, happy where I am, but like, what's the harm? So yeah, I clicked on it, went through that process and learned little.
Maxwell Forrest (16:03.763)
Hmm, yep.
Jamie (16:29.324)
little by little a bit more about the company and the role and yeah, over that period got more convinced that it could be a really exciting opportunity and then yeah, ultimately took that leap.
Maxwell Forrest (16:38.57)
Hmm.
Yeah, amazing. Yeah, I think as you mentioned, it's pretty hard to find UX research jobs in Japan in general, let alone ones that don't require Japanese. So I think, yeah, you're really lucky in finding the perfect.
Jamie (16:54.358)
Yeah, I definitely think it's easier for more. Like the reason it's hard for researchers is because we're quite external facing. We do speak to a lot of customers, right? So for most companies in Japan, they're serving Japanese customers primarily, hence Japanese is required. But I think it might be a little easier for positions that are more internal facing. So designers and engineers are the classic ones where I think there's probably more opportunities. So.
Maxwell Forrest (17:18.271)
Hmm.
Jamie (17:23.662)
If any of your listeners are in those kind of roles, think they've got a better chance to find stuff.
Maxwell Forrest (17:31.627)
Yeah, I think there's a huge number of engineers in particular moving to Japan in recent years. And I think it's a really good place to work for engineers. It's very easy to get by, I think, without Japanese and also to get high paying jobs. But yeah, as you mentioned for UX research and design, it's definitely more difficult. It's not impossible. Yeah, as you can best do, but yeah, it's definitely not as easy as it is for engineers.
Jamie (17:54.52)
for sure.
Maxwell Forrest (17:55.679)
Yeah. And so when you applied to that job, you're applying obviously from the UK. What was that process like? I think was sort of applying to a job in Japan from overseas.
Jamie (18:08.82)
Yeah, mean, thankfully the company is quite international in general. it felt very much like applying for any other job. So the recruiter that I was speaking with was a native English speaker. I think the biggest difference was some of the interview sessions. There was a translator in there.
So that was unique for me. I haven't done an interview in sort of a dual language before. But other than that, it felt like any other interview process, like particularly for research, know, it's all the same principles apply. They won't understand your methodology and your sort of product knowledge and your cultural fit and things like that. So I don't think there's anything like too unique.
Maxwell Forrest (18:40.276)
Mm-hmm.
Jamie (19:00.342)
in that sense. But of course, one of the questions that came up in every stage was like, why do you want to move to Japan? So like, I don't know how they thought about my answer, but like, all I could do was be honest, I suppose. But I'm really sure what exactly they're looking for, but more just maybe your passion, I suppose, interest, genuine interest in moving.
Maxwell Forrest (19:08.011)
Hmm, no.
Maxwell Forrest (19:22.219)
Mmm.
Yeah. And so you had all of the interviews online then remotely. You didn't have to come into the office in Tokyo to, before getting the job.
Jamie (19:33.088)
Yes, it was all online. However, for me, it worked out quite well because September last year, you'll remember we had the Shimoda workshop that you ran. That was amazing. That happened at the time where I'd just finished all the interviews. I'd sort of just sent an email saying, by the way, I'm going to be in Japan. Would you like a coffee to the hiring manager?
Maxwell Forrest (19:57.195)
Hmm. Yeah.
Jamie (20:01.026)
And they were very receptive of that. I think overall that played into my favor. I could get like a little bit face time. So obviously I'm aware that most people can't do that. It's just the timing and just the effort of being there. But for me, it worked out quite well. And yeah, it's...
Maxwell Forrest (20:07.731)
Hmm. Yup.
Jamie (20:22.23)
I made sure to bring a little souvenir with me and so, you know, it a good impression. So I think it worked out quite well.
Maxwell Forrest (20:25.683)
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess it allowed you to also see that they're real and then visit the company and make sure that it's somewhere that you'd like to work.
Jamie (20:38.966)
Yeah, I got to see the office as well, which was really nice. And yeah, just another opportunity. And it was a nice more casual setting because this sort of full loop was over at that point. So it felt less like an interview and more of a just like casual getting to know each other.
Maxwell Forrest (20:45.545)
Yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (20:49.78)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (20:58.025)
Hmm. Nice, nice, nice. So how far after that was it that you made the decision to accept and move to Japan?
Jamie (21:10.542)
It wasn't too long, although the process was quite long for me. I did deliver, did, not sure how much I should say, but I took my time, shall we say, to come to that decision. It definitely wasn't an easy one to make for sure. So yeah, I took as much time as probably you can get away with, with any company, so they were very patient with me. Both, actually both companies, because I also...
was maybe a little too transparent with Meta at the time that I was contemplating this. But I think that's just how I operate. I like to just be honest with people, partly because I'd built trust with my manager at the time, so I wanted to be upfront. But I do sometimes question that decision of like,
Maxwell Forrest (21:45.076)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (21:52.852)
Nope.
Jamie (21:59.918)
Maybe I caused them more stress than I could have done over a period of time. He reassured me at the time that he'd rather know and have their heads up time until... Yeah, he was the best. So it took a little while, but then, obviously it was a tough decision. But ultimately, think not to drop too many cliches down, but...
Maxwell Forrest (22:03.618)
Hmm...
Maxwell Forrest (22:07.755)
Yeah.
Yeah, sounds like a cool manager.
Maxwell Forrest (22:19.787)
Hmm.
Jamie (22:25.824)
It was more just like a fear of regret than anything else. Like life is short. I'd done meta for nearly five years and like I said, had a great time doing it, but it felt like a very rare, unique opportunity that may not come around again. So I was like, yeah, let's see what this whole Japan thing is all about, what it's like. And...
Maxwell Forrest (22:28.435)
Hmm, yep.
Maxwell Forrest (22:47.252)
Hmm.
Jamie (22:49.934)
And know, life has a funny way of just kind of changing things as you go, I thought I'd give it.
Maxwell Forrest (22:55.979)
Yeah, yeah. It seems like it was sort of meant to be after your experience in 2019 around COVID and then having the perfect job pop up and then, yeah.
Jamie (23:05.676)
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I think other people have said the same thing. Like maybe it was just meant to be. And yeah, I'm still like very early on this journey. So we don't really know where it's going to go. It could be a disaster. like honestly, like the mentality that I at least try to have is even if it doesn't work out or it's not.
Maxwell Forrest (23:17.533)
Yeah.
Jamie (23:30.936)
quite what I expected at least A. I tried and B. I'll know because I think probably worse is not doing it and then like thinking it could have been amazing could have been so great not whereas like you don't really know until you try right so
Maxwell Forrest (23:43.209)
Hmm, yeah, definitely.
Maxwell Forrest (23:48.615)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're doing the research firsthand.
Jamie (23:51.84)
Yeah,
Maxwell Forrest (23:54.835)
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. So then you decided to accept the offer and move to Japan. What was it like? mean, I know you'd already prepared to move to Japan before COVID. So you'd already experienced it once. But what was it like to sort of move your entire life from the UK to Japan?
Jamie (24:12.02)
Yeah, I mean, it all happened so quickly because like I said, I sort of, I guess was quite slow and delayed the kind of accepting, fully accepting the offer. But once I fully committed to that, then things moved very quickly. thankfully, the company was very, very supportive, provided a lot of support for like relocation and
managing a lot of logistics both in terms of like the visa and like transporting your belongings and things like that. There is a little bit of back and forth between like documents you need for the visa and things like that. So like maybe your university degree, copies of that and references from past employers. So there's a bit of a dialogue back and forth just collecting stuff. But actually it wasn't too bad.
And then, yeah, before you know it, all your stuff's in a box. They use the company Yamato, who's like one of the big companies in Japan, but they, I guess they have a presence everywhere. but I was surprised how efficient that was because I packed everything myself pretty much. And then three people showed up at my door with boxes and all the materials and basically unpacked everything. And like.
Maxwell Forrest (25:34.365)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jamie (25:38.382)
carefully, diligently label everything and have it fully documented and perfectly. then, yeah, yeah, very much so because it was, I think it was two Japanese people and then I assume it like a British person. yeah, and then at the time, it went so quickly. I think it's like, yeah, you're you're busy kind of like trying to wrap stuff up at your current job and leave a good impression there.
Maxwell Forrest (25:42.153)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, your experience of Japan started then.
Maxwell Forrest (25:55.339)
Hmm.
Jamie (26:08.384)
And obviously like there's a lot of like saying goodbye to people you think you're probably not going to see for a long time and then mentally preparing to move halfway across the world. So it was pretty chaotic. I'm not going to lie.
Maxwell Forrest (26:12.446)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (26:20.711)
Yeah. Was the moving, did you move a lot of your stuff or did you like, how did you choose? Like, did you bring furniture? know some people bring sort of everything.
Jamie (26:31.104)
Yeah, I tried to be pretty minimal, partly because I was in a position where my flat in London, I'm now renting to other people. So all the big furniture actually stayed.
So most of what I was shipping to Japan was just more like personal goods and a few obviously like clothing, a few sort of like cooking and cleaning stuff and then I think the only furniture I moved was my desk chair, just my Herman Miller chair. I felt like I needed to bring that.
Maxwell Forrest (26:51.797)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (27:00.997)
okay.
Nice, nice. And that was sort of covered by the company? They sort of set up the moving and everything? Okay.
Jamie (27:09.728)
Yes. Yeah, although I will say it's like there was almost like three categories of goods. So think about it like in terms of like how long it's going to take to come with you to Japan. So the stuff you take on the plane, obviously you have as you land basically. But that's pretty much just like your rucksack or bag carry on plus a suitcase. I think you can pay extra for
another suitcase if you wanted but for some silly reason I opted just to have one. I felt I could get by. Then I think there was like a small allocation of air travel stuff which was I think like basically a month later it would arrive so for me that was some extra like personal belongings a bit of extra clothing and my PlayStation 5.
Maxwell Forrest (27:53.45)
Mmm.
Jamie (28:01.646)
priorities obviously. And then everything else ended up going on a boat which took almost four months of only recently. So that's everything else, so all any other clothes, furniture, etc. All the big items. And then it's got a battery in it as well because like you couldn't put like batteries in your like suitcase on the plane. So yeah, it's kind of a long period to go without.
Maxwell Forrest (28:03.071)
Yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (28:09.957)
wow, okay.
Maxwell Forrest (28:21.107)
Hmm. Yup.
Jamie (28:30.234)
most of your stuff. So I was living for almost four months out of kind of one suitcase worth of clothing really. So it's quite nice to have... Yes, exactly. Yeah, I did definitely buy a few items but yeah, it's a weird feeling. You do realize like actually we don't need that much stuff I guess.
Maxwell Forrest (28:31.179)
Mm-hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (28:37.835)
Well, I guess you can buy more here as well.
Maxwell Forrest (28:49.835)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (28:54.441)
Mmm, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jamie (28:55.246)
It's more like the household stuff actually, I ended up buying a lot of different cooking equipment like cups and mugs and pans and stuff like that.
Maxwell Forrest (29:01.195)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (29:04.703)
Yeah. So yeah, you've been here for how many months now? Four, five months? Four months. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, what's it like for your first four months? I think it's something that you've been thinking about for a long time and then you finally come here and you started working and living, you have an apartment now. Yeah. What's your sort of first impressions of life in Japan?
Jamie (29:09.922)
That's four, Yeah, yeah.
Jamie (29:25.902)
Wow, big question. think a lot of it is pretty close to what I expected, because I'd been lucky enough to visit a lot to Japan. So I knew kind of what, as mentioned, a little bit more from a tourist point of view, but I knew how a lot of things operate. just understanding.
the like metro system in Tokyo and all that sort of stuff and just how clean everything was. So lot of that like hadn't come as a huge surprise. First impressions though, like I think for me was not necessarily on the more positive side, but like when you first land, there's a lot of admin to do, right? So you've got to go to the like the local city hall to register.
Maxwell Forrest (30:08.756)
Hmm.
Jamie (30:13.326)
your new location and sign up for a bank account and telephone number so the very first impression is like my gosh i've never written my like my name and address so many times in the space of like one week it was crazy but then slowly like day-to-day life kind of creeps back into a more of a routine and yeah i think it's probably
Maxwell Forrest (30:28.639)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jamie (30:42.168)
Gosh, I just always, not shocked, like always amazed by how busy Tokyo is. Like I think coming from London. Yeah, London's busy, but I think just...
Maxwell Forrest (30:52.125)
Even compared to London. Yeah.
Jamie (30:57.846)
I think Tokyo is busier, but it can get away with it because people are bit more organized as well. like a flow of like human traffic in the stations is just so much more. I think if that amount of people tried to do anything in London, it would just break out into chaos quite quickly. But yeah, what else? I think the other thing that I wrestle with mentally quite a bit is...
Maxwell Forrest (31:14.185)
Hahaha.
Jamie (31:22.648)
the work-life balance part. And I think my company is very good at that, but of course, like, I'm one of those people that when I start a new position, I want to really hit the ground running and prove my worth and like show people what I can do and do a really good job. But equally, part of moving here was to enjoy Japan, right, as well, like not just...
Maxwell Forrest (31:25.3)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (31:44.989)
Hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jamie (31:46.614)
work late night every night, come home, collapse and then do the same again the next day. Like I want to actually have energy to go out in the evenings and explore or do stuff on the weekend. So there's that tension or balance that I'm trying to find which is like still make headway with the new job and
Maxwell Forrest (32:06.347)
Hmm.
Jamie (32:07.288)
progress and demonstrate my value, whilst not neglecting all the other stuff. That is a big reason I made the jump, right, was to experience more of the cultural side and do all that stuff. So that's an interesting ongoing challenge that I'm thinking about.
Maxwell Forrest (32:13.515)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (32:19.018)
Yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (32:25.535)
Hmm. Well, still plenty of time, I guess, to explore Japan and enjoy your life here. I I think, the first few months are definitely chaotic with all the documentation and settling in. So hopefully, yeah, you can relax and enjoy it a bit more.
Jamie (32:31.19)
Yes, yes.
Jamie (32:39.692)
Yeah, the other part is like, I think like getting used to the change in availability of goods. So your home country, if you've been there your whole life, you're used to having certain things super available.
Maxwell Forrest (32:50.251)
Mmm.
Maxwell Forrest (32:57.419)
well what are some things that you miss from the UK?
Jamie (33:01.823)
so it's most of it's like food and drink stuff, right? So like, for me, do know what I mean by squash or like cordial?
Maxwell Forrest (33:10.283)
Yeah, like you with water you drink it with water is that yeah
Jamie (33:13.324)
Yeah, yeah. like in the UK, like Ribena is one of the brands that people will probably know. Robinson squash, like I would always have that at home. You can't really get that in Japan, at least that I found. I've even went to the British shop to ask for it. So things like that, those like little daily things that's like, wow, I didn't realize that would be quite so difficult to find. you know,
Maxwell Forrest (33:25.099)
Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (33:38.347)
I guess I have to replace it with mugicha or something, something local. Eventually.
Jamie (33:42.222)
Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of like small stuff that you took for granted, I think. And some of it's just like so small. It's like, whatever other stuff it starts to build. I like, I do really miss that. I'll have to like make sure to pick up some next time I go home or something like that. And yeah, just getting used to a change in diet, right? Because you're definitely eating more rice and noodles than I was prior to coming here.
Maxwell Forrest (34:01.044)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (34:05.385)
Hmm. Yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (34:12.427)
Yeah, I think it takes your body a while to get used to all the rice, especially if you're it for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Jamie (34:12.686)
And.
Jamie (34:17.858)
Yeah.
Yeah, but yeah, think as humans, are quite adaptable though, like not just in terms of food, but just like environment and stuff like before you know it, it becomes normal quite quickly. It's almost scary how adaptable as humans we are, I think sometimes.
Maxwell Forrest (34:22.164)
Yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (34:29.995)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (34:37.713)
Yeah, yeah, all the more reason to try something new and experiment living somewhere new. Yeah. So I guess, yeah, we've heard a lot about how you feel after moving here and then some things that you miss and what it's been like to move in. What about the work aspect? Because I think, you know, it's your first time working in a Japanese company. How does that compare to your past experiences at the startup or at Meta?
Jamie (34:41.08)
See you.
Jamie (35:00.27)
I mean, like there's a lot that's the same. Like at the end of the day, it's a business trying to achieve business outcomes. And then from my point of view, like a lot of the UX principles are the same.
So there's, yeah, of course there's a lot of similarities. I think the biggest difference is I'm now working in a very bilingual environment, whereas in my past companies it was just all English. But, and then unless you had like small little groups of teams where there was another prominent language, like, you don't want to stop people speaking a language, right? But the default was sort of English, whereas...
Maxwell Forrest (35:23.263)
Hmm.
Jamie (35:38.958)
At this company, it's almost like 50 % English, 50 % Japanese. I know it will swing a little bit depending on the team, but it's quite interesting. A lot of the documentation is in both, and just managing that.
Maxwell Forrest (35:44.062)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (35:57.253)
When you say it's 50 % English, 50 % Japanese, what do mean by that? Like the conversations or the people or...
Jamie (36:02.862)
Yeah, pretty much, I guess like 50 % is, I would say maybe it's more like 60-70 % Japanese, 30-40 % English, and that goes across like the communication, the documentation, just the people, but I guess rather than English, mean like international folk versus local Japanese people.
Maxwell Forrest (36:15.86)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (36:24.883)
Hmm.
Jamie (36:29.422)
So yeah, there's lots that's done to try and help be supportive of international people, which is great. But it's definitely not playing sailings all the time for short. There are instances where you find yourself in a room and everyone's Japanese, they're just speaking Japanese and you don't really want to be the person to be like, can we speak English?
Maxwell Forrest (36:44.733)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (36:54.215)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jamie (36:55.566)
Because you know there's different levels of language ability as well amongst all groups of people so among more of the international people there are people who speak perfectly amazing Japanese and they've been in the country for a long time.
And then there's people like me who are more kind of like lower level Japanese but looking to improve. And then on the Japanese side, it's equivalent where I think there are Japanese people whose English is amazing and like absolutely perfect. And then people who are on the lower end of the spectrum who are also like trying to improve their English. So there is good culture of like being understanding of people and
Maxwell Forrest (37:31.22)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (37:38.241)
Hmm.
Jamie (37:39.638)
I think there is a term that the company uses, I forget what it is, but it basically encourages you to use simple language in whichever language you speak so that it's easy to kind of move between the two.
Maxwell Forrest (37:46.185)
Hmm... No.
Maxwell Forrest (37:51.261)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's difficult. mean, the company that you work at definitely, I think, is, they probably invest the most in that, in all companies in Japan, in terms of trying to make an environment where it's easy for both international and Japanese people to work together. I know they have like a big interpreting translation team and they also have those sort of initiatives and they have language teaching as well. So, but it's, yeah, it can never be perfect. I think it's a bit of a struggle sometimes.
Jamie (38:08.481)
Yeah.
Jamie (38:14.402)
For sure. I think about it quite a bit actually as to like, to what, cause obviously it comes at a cost, like hiring, like there is like a whole bunch of like interpreters and like translation support and there are definitely instances where it might feel like it slows things down. But then the upside is like you're open to a much more like international culture and way of thinking and market of talent.
Maxwell Forrest (38:21.355)
Hmm.
Jamie (38:41.678)
Yeah, I do like, I don't have the data to necessarily say which is like more effective, but obviously the company's made a position and I'm very grateful because it's allowed me to join. yeah, you can definitely see this. There's pros and cons to that approach for sure. I think overall, think my, maybe I'm biased, but I feel like generally it's a more positive outcome for the company.
Maxwell Forrest (38:52.404)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (38:59.283)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (39:06.525)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. And as a UX person, mean, in my experience anyway, it's a lot of Japanese companies, the way they approach UX is quite different. And as a UX professional, you have to spend a lot of time convincing people of the value of what you do and also sort of what it is in the first place. In that sense, have you experienced any differences in the way that UX is perceived or what you have to do as a UX researcher?
Jamie (39:17.262)
Please.
Jamie (39:31.648)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, coming from Meta as well, where UX and research was very mature and like well positioned in the company. I mean, of course, it's not always plain sailing there. Like there's definitely still moments where you've got to fight for your seat at the table, particularly at the higher points of the company. But I think there was a lot of process and
I think foundation already set as to why research was valuable and UX research in particular. And a big part of that is when you get to the scale of Meta and other big companies, any decision you make is hugely expensive. Whichever direction you go in, you're potentially going to put...
Maxwell Forrest (40:18.292)
Hmm.
Jamie (40:22.092)
tens or twenty or however many engineers to work based on this decision and they're all getting paid a lot of money so that's like a very like expensive decision to get right or wrong so even if research gives you a little bit more confidence that that's the right path to go down it's justified so and people that was generally understood no no no definitely not like that's always a big part of it like research is not a silver bullet it's just helping you
Maxwell Forrest (40:40.747)
And you're going to blame the researchers, right? If it goes wrong.
Maxwell Forrest (40:49.329)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jamie (40:49.838)
through your confidence that this is right way to go. And that was fairly well understood to the point where like a lot of decisions would get blocked unless it had a really strong evidence from either research or data analytics or competitive analysis or something to say like this is the right thing to do. So it wasn't so much like justifying research at Meta. And think that's probably the same of a big tech.
In Japan, at least in my experience, there's a little bit more trying to convince people that it's important and reminding people that past insights exist. Sometimes it happens in a little bit of a vacuum. But it's still kind of early for me to say, I guess. But just from what I've seen so far, it's a little...
I don't know, I'm curious to get your opinion on this Max Bell.
Maxwell Forrest (41:46.443)
Feel free to be honest.
Jamie (41:50.058)
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's like it's maybe just not as mature in the space, to the point. And maybe that's just that there's not been enough examples where it's really had big wins in the domestic market to say like, wow. Because I think what I hear a lot is like people pointing at like Apple and being like, like they're a design led company. Look how great they are.
Maxwell Forrest (41:55.935)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (42:02.868)
Hmm.
Jamie (42:16.302)
almost as this sort of fantastical unicorn that exists over there. But I think I'd love to understand actually myself if there are some like Japanese companies that have had like breakout success from a very design driven mentality. But yeah, I don't know. I get the sense that like Japan is...
Maxwell Forrest (42:16.575)
Yeah.
Jamie (42:40.876)
maybe it's a stereotype, but sometimes a little resistant to change. So there's a little bit of effort to kind of like push people's thinking sometimes. Yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (42:45.055)
Hmm, yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (42:50.483)
Yes, yes, yes. Especially when your research results are not what people were expecting or not the sort of result that they want. It can be difficult because then you're sort of harming the harmony, the wah, by having a result that isn't what people want. So that can be challenging.
Jamie (43:03.361)
Yes.
Yeah, that's a really good point. I've come across that, started to come across that for the first time quite recently where, yeah, I feel like the cliche is somewhat true, at least in my experience so far, around like the sort of alignment culture of everyone has to, for a decision to happen, everyone needs to sort of be aligned. And that makes it quite difficult for research sometimes where...
Maxwell Forrest (43:29.427)
Hmm.
Jamie (43:34.07)
If everyone's aligned and then you have to come in and be like, actually, this isn't quite what users think, like, it's quite different to what we'd anticipated. That's a little harder when you have the rest of the like team already kind of all aligned and conform on a...
Maxwell Forrest (43:37.043)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (43:47.029)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm, then you'll have to realign them all individually on the new research insights.
Jamie (43:58.894)
Yeah, you have to almost, yeah, be the person to kind of stick out against that. And that's where I'm learning. And I think this is true of other places as well, where sometimes the train has left the station, if you know what I mean, like where the business has made a decision, rightly or wrongly, about a certain direction. And at that point,
Maxwell Forrest (44:06.772)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (44:19.178)
Hmm.
Jamie (44:23.2)
your power as a researcher is a little bit more how to do this in the best way possible rather than not to do it because that decision is already out of your control.
Maxwell Forrest (44:28.553)
Hmm, yeah.
Maxwell Forrest (44:33.307)
Yeah, you need to read the air. But it sounds similar to the bureaucracy in the sense that it can be a challenge, but it's a learning experience and it's a cultural thing. And so it's just all part of the experience of moving to Japan and experiencing a new life.
Jamie (44:37.582)
I this move.
Jamie (44:54.253)
Yeah.
Jamie (44:57.71)
for sure.
Maxwell Forrest (44:59.987)
Awesome, thank you so much. So yeah, it's been really interesting to hear about your journey. Just to end, is there anything that you would tell people overseas, like people who were in your position a few years ago, who have been to Japan, maybe as a tourist, and they want to live here in the future, but they're not sure how to go about doing that? Or if it's the right decision, do you have anything that you'd like to tell them?
Jamie (45:21.142)
Yeah, I've already had a few people reach out to me or through other people indirectly ask me, I've got an interest in moving to Japan, how do I do that? And for me, we've spoken about this before, I think there's broadly speaking three different routes to get to Japan.
The first one is like, which a lot of people opt for is teaching English. I think there's a lot of opportunities. You don't need any Japanese necessarily, but you can become like a, an ALT assistant language teacher. so yeah, JET program, like a lot of those are very popular. I think the good thing about those is there's a lot of community around them, so you can kind of like, feel quite supported. A downside is like, I think.
salary is not necessarily amazing and then I don't know what the career prospects are like after that but yeah I think it's one option. I don't know I haven't done it myself so I couldn't tell you from first-hand experience but I know a few people who have. The second option is like if you've got strong language skills and maybe you're studying Japanese at university or something like
Maxwell Forrest (46:18.218)
Not great.
Jamie (46:36.408)
there is potential to go straight into the Japanese job market place. So like that way there's definitely more options available. The downside is you're competing against Japanese people and obviously you'll probably end up with like a very traditional Japanese culture or work environment potentially. But I mean, it's definitely like having the language skill is definitely to your advantage for sure.
And then the route I took, is option number three, which is sort of building a skill set in your home country or anywhere else that's maybe easier and sort of hoping that that skill is in demand at the right point, a little bit right time, right place with opportunities that come around. So, but building a strong enough.
Maxwell Forrest (47:20.297)
Hmm. Yeah, specifically designers, so I think we have a lot of designers, researchers, UX people listening to this podcast. For them, is there any specific advice that you'd have for people working in UX who want to get a job in Japan?
Jamie (47:39.224)
Ooh, okay. Gosh, I don't know if I have great advice, because like I said from my story earlier, it was pretty much serendipity of just the alert popping up on LinkedIn. I think probably the best advice I could give is to network. So the fact that like how you and I met, I literally just...
Maxwell Forrest (47:50.667)
Hmm.
Maxwell Forrest (47:58.463)
Hmm.
Jamie (48:00.896)
I almost you, like messaged you on LinkedIn. Because I saw you were working at like one of the few companies that does hire international people in New York to research. So was curious to get your thoughts. So I've done that with a few people and I think that's always good to just get an understanding. And you never know, it might lead to like an opportunity at some point.
because it's a relatively small community, feel like. So when roles become available and things like that, the community talks within itself and there's role. If you can make connections within that community, it's probably the best advice that I can think of right now, at least.
Maxwell Forrest (48:34.111)
Yeah. Very small community.
Maxwell Forrest (48:43.947)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's really good advice. Particularly for UX research, the community is extremely small. yeah, if you're in touch with myself or someone in Japan working in UX research, then we can definitely share any jobs and sort of what's happening in the industry here. And also, yeah, if you're not able to reach out to people directly, then there's also events that you can join in Tokyo, such as our Tokyo UX Meetup or other sort of design events, Creative Tokyo.
And also, of course, you could join our design workshops like Jamie did last year.
Jamie (49:18.734)
Absolutely, that's the best advice I can give you is to come to the workshop for sure.
Maxwell Forrest (49:25.159)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's a way to sort of spend a longer period of time here and then experience what it's like to perform sort of UX research or UX design.
Jamie (49:35.362)
Yeah, and that also gives you not only that network or a taste of that network, not just in Japan, but internationally as well, because you'll meet people from different parts of the world. And there may be other opportunities that people are interested in as well. I think when I went, there was a lot of people from Taiwan.
Maxwell Forrest (49:44.51)
Hmm.
Jamie (49:55.73)
and other parts of Asia as well. yeah, and a lot of us still stay connected. So it's cool just to kind of see what people are up to, what they're learning, opportunities to come along through other ways as well.
Maxwell Forrest (50:13.771)
Yeah, definitely. Okay, well, yeah, mean, your Japan, your ex-researcher journey has just begun, but I'm excited to see all the amazing things that you're going to do in Japan. But yeah, it's been amazing to hear your story. And I think a lot of people will be, it'll be really helpful for a lot of people who are interested in doing the same thing. So yeah, thank you so much for your time today.
Jamie (50:24.524)
Yeah.
Jamie (50:35.36)
My pleasure, always fun chatting. Maybe we should do this again in a year's time to see what I've learnt, what's different.
Maxwell Forrest (50:40.391)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that'd be really cool, think. Okay, thank you so much.
Jamie (50:46.614)
Awesome. Thank you.